Apophatic theology -- from wiki
"is a theology that attempts to describe God by negation, to speak of God only in terms of what may not be said about God.
In brief, the attempt is to gain and express knowledge of God by describing what God is not (apophasis), rather than by describing what God is. The apophatic tradition is often, though not always, allied with the approach of mysticism, which focuses on a spontaneous or cultivated individual experience of the divine reality beyond the realm of ordinary perception, an experience often unmediated by the structures of traditional organized religion or learned thought and behavior."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology
So, minimal deism could be called apophatic deism. god as answer to the question "what created reality?" and leave it at that.
Sunday, May 31, 2009
Saturday, May 23, 2009
minimal deism the answer?
let's define "god" as the answer to the question "what created the universe." And leave it at that -- the rest is speculation. I think this has some traction, as the universe can't create itself, given the laws of physics. A force outside the rules of the game, so to speak, is required to create. And that force doesn't have to follow the laws of physics, so it can have non-scientific attributes.
how does that sound?
how does that sound?
Thursday, May 21, 2009
question: God's family?
God (Jesus) has a mother, Mary. He has a step-father, Joseph. He has brothers and sisters. He also has a father, God (Jesus is the son, and God is the father; Jesus is part of the trinity, the godhead).
So, God had a mother?
God has brothers and sisters?
If Mary is the Mother of God, who is the Father? God is!
What do christians believe?
So, God had a mother?
God has brothers and sisters?
If Mary is the Mother of God, who is the Father? God is!
What do christians believe?
Hypostatic union questions
The wiki defininition:
"Hypostatic union (from the Greek: ὑπόστασις, {"[h]upostasis"},"hypostasis", translated reality or person)[1] is a technical term in Christian theology employed in mainstream Christology to describe the presence of both human and divine natures in Jesus Christ. It became official at the Council of Ephesus, which stated that the two natures (divine and human) are united in the one person (existence or reality, "hypostasis") of Christ."
"The First Council of Nicaea defined the Trinity as being three persons or realities (hypostases) with one essence (ousia)."
"The Nestorian Theodore of Mopsuestia went in the other direction, arguing that in Christ there were two natures (dyophysite) (human and divine) and two hypostases (in the sense of "essence" or "person") that co-existed."
"The Chalcedonian Creed agreed with Theodore that there were two natures in the Incarnation. However, the Council of Chalcedon also insisted that hypostasis be used as it was in the Trinitarian definition: to indicate the person and not the nature as with Apollinarius.
Thus, the Council declared that in Christ there are two natures; each retaining its own properties, and together united in one subsistence and in one single person (εἰς ἓν πρόσωπον καὶ μίαν ὑπόστασιν, eis hen prosopon kai mian hupostasin) [9]
As the precise nature of this union is held to defy finite human comprehension, the hypostatic union is also referred to by the alternative term "mystical union."
The Oriental Orthodox Churches rejected the Chalcedonian Creed were known as Miaphysites because they would only accept a definition that characterized the incarnate Son as having one united nature (miaphysis). The Chalcedonian acceptance of "in two natures" was seen as tending towards a Nestorian dyophysite Christology. Contrariwise, the Chalcedonians saw the Miaphysites as tending towards the monophysitism of Eutyches."
OK, got that? We'll get to some questions in the next post.
"Hypostatic union (from the Greek: ὑπόστασις, {"[h]upostasis"},"hypostasis", translated reality or person)[1] is a technical term in Christian theology employed in mainstream Christology to describe the presence of both human and divine natures in Jesus Christ. It became official at the Council of Ephesus, which stated that the two natures (divine and human) are united in the one person (existence or reality, "hypostasis") of Christ."
"The First Council of Nicaea defined the Trinity as being three persons or realities (hypostases) with one essence (ousia)."
"The Nestorian Theodore of Mopsuestia went in the other direction, arguing that in Christ there were two natures (dyophysite) (human and divine) and two hypostases (in the sense of "essence" or "person") that co-existed."
"The Chalcedonian Creed agreed with Theodore that there were two natures in the Incarnation. However, the Council of Chalcedon also insisted that hypostasis be used as it was in the Trinitarian definition: to indicate the person and not the nature as with Apollinarius.
Thus, the Council declared that in Christ there are two natures; each retaining its own properties, and together united in one subsistence and in one single person (εἰς ἓν πρόσωπον καὶ μίαν ὑπόστασιν, eis hen prosopon kai mian hupostasin) [9]
As the precise nature of this union is held to defy finite human comprehension, the hypostatic union is also referred to by the alternative term "mystical union."
The Oriental Orthodox Churches rejected the Chalcedonian Creed were known as Miaphysites because they would only accept a definition that characterized the incarnate Son as having one united nature (miaphysis). The Chalcedonian acceptance of "in two natures" was seen as tending towards a Nestorian dyophysite Christology. Contrariwise, the Chalcedonians saw the Miaphysites as tending towards the monophysitism of Eutyches."
OK, got that? We'll get to some questions in the next post.
trinity question 2
See wiki definition of trinity below.
When Jesus died on the cross -- what exactly did that entail? Did only his bodily form die? Or did his aspect of the trinity "die" too?
In other words, for three days after his death on the cross, was there only a "duality" of Father and Holy Spirit? Because, you know, Jesus was dead, wasn't he? Truly, totally dead?
And if the trinity existed in those three days, then isn't the "death" of Jesus less significant, since he really wasn't dead? He still existed as part of the triune God?
What do christians believe?
When Jesus died on the cross -- what exactly did that entail? Did only his bodily form die? Or did his aspect of the trinity "die" too?
In other words, for three days after his death on the cross, was there only a "duality" of Father and Holy Spirit? Because, you know, Jesus was dead, wasn't he? Truly, totally dead?
And if the trinity existed in those three days, then isn't the "death" of Jesus less significant, since he really wasn't dead? He still existed as part of the triune God?
What do christians believe?
trinity question 1
wiki definition of the trinity:
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.[1] The doctrine states that God is the Triune God, existing as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases,[2] but one being.[3] Each of the persons is understood as having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures. Since the beginning of the third century[4] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[5] Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as "the central dogma of Christian theology".[5]
OK. So, before Mary was impregnated with Jesus, we can presume that the Jesus part of the trinity was spirit only, with no bodily form? then for 30 odd years he had a bodily form as well as a spiritual aspect as part of the trinity? And then he "died" (another question we'll get to) and was resurrected? And now his form is what? Spiritual only? Spiritual and bodily? Does he exist in heaven in a bodily form?
It seems that the triune God had at least three different states: pre-birth spiritual only, "life of Jesus" spirit and body, and post resurrection something.
The nature of God has changed through history? The trinity is not permanent or stable? Is that what christians believe?
That's my question.
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.[1] The doctrine states that God is the Triune God, existing as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases,[2] but one being.[3] Each of the persons is understood as having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures. Since the beginning of the third century[4] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[5] Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as "the central dogma of Christian theology".[5]
OK. So, before Mary was impregnated with Jesus, we can presume that the Jesus part of the trinity was spirit only, with no bodily form? then for 30 odd years he had a bodily form as well as a spiritual aspect as part of the trinity? And then he "died" (another question we'll get to) and was resurrected? And now his form is what? Spiritual only? Spiritual and bodily? Does he exist in heaven in a bodily form?
It seems that the triune God had at least three different states: pre-birth spiritual only, "life of Jesus" spirit and body, and post resurrection something.
The nature of God has changed through history? The trinity is not permanent or stable? Is that what christians believe?
That's my question.
Friday, May 15, 2009
the mystical paths article: focus on theism
Here is the core idea:
"what is it that G-d wants from us at these frantic times? It is not our deeply concentrated prayers, nor is it our lofty and detached meditations. He wants one thing most of all. He wants a happy baby and a relaxed new mother. This means a clean and well-fed baby and it means changing the baby’s diaper. This has now become the most holy work we can do. This is what we do to fulfill G-d’s wishes. He wants a happy wife and a clean, orderly home. He wants a happy family and, yes, even a happy daddy, too."
This got me thinking that someone who does believe, a theist, is not living in a world of transcendent feelings of universal connectedness 24/7. He or she may not even have some special "spiritual" feeling most of the day. Maybe it's much more mundane than that. Theism is like a background operating assumption. It's a way of putting life activities in an overall framework. It's participating in cultural group rituals. It is, yes, having some types of beliefs, but those are in the back of the mind and do not require constant reinforcement through emotional connections. I think that theism can even operate without much "belief," if that makes sense.
That still doesn't put me over the tipping point. I'm still in my atheist mindset, but I can see that theism may not differ as much as I thought previously. theists do these things, ancient rituals, and have a anthropomorphic worldview and a view of a "living" universe under a central intelligence existing outside space and time. But, other than that, we're almost the same!
"what is it that G-d wants from us at these frantic times? It is not our deeply concentrated prayers, nor is it our lofty and detached meditations. He wants one thing most of all. He wants a happy baby and a relaxed new mother. This means a clean and well-fed baby and it means changing the baby’s diaper. This has now become the most holy work we can do. This is what we do to fulfill G-d’s wishes. He wants a happy wife and a clean, orderly home. He wants a happy family and, yes, even a happy daddy, too."
This got me thinking that someone who does believe, a theist, is not living in a world of transcendent feelings of universal connectedness 24/7. He or she may not even have some special "spiritual" feeling most of the day. Maybe it's much more mundane than that. Theism is like a background operating assumption. It's a way of putting life activities in an overall framework. It's participating in cultural group rituals. It is, yes, having some types of beliefs, but those are in the back of the mind and do not require constant reinforcement through emotional connections. I think that theism can even operate without much "belief," if that makes sense.
That still doesn't put me over the tipping point. I'm still in my atheist mindset, but I can see that theism may not differ as much as I thought previously. theists do these things, ancient rituals, and have a anthropomorphic worldview and a view of a "living" universe under a central intelligence existing outside space and time. But, other than that, we're almost the same!
Thursday, May 7, 2009
from Mystical Paths
I'm gonna come back to this later and think about it. I think it has something to say for us "spirituality seekers." Also it relates to Paul's idea of salvation through faith and not works.
Holy Diapers - - - - - - - posted by Akiva - - 5/07/2009 08:35:00 AM ET
by Reb Gutman Locks at Mystical Paths
Question:
Having defined the lofty purpose of life as such things as revealing G-d’s magnificent Presence in the world, we can wonder what then does this really have to do with us and our normal, everyday life? In fact, most of us are so busy with the mundane things that are so overwhelming, how are we expected to be able to concentrate even five minutes on such lofty spiritual matters?
Answer:
Here is one of the great secrets of spiritual life. What does the spiritual seeker really want? We say that it is to be able to see G-d right here in the physical world. But really even greater than this desire is our desire to please Him. If He wanted us to have a different goal, other than revealing His Presence, then this would become our spiritual goal. So living a successful spiritual life really amounts to simply trying to please G-d.
When you have an infant in the house and an overwhelmed new mother, things can get pretty hectic. Add to this that you have to go to the office, that there are the other kids to take care of, the house is a total mess, and on and on . . . things just pile on top of each other. It is so easy to fall into depression (G-d forbid) and just want to give up and sit down and cry!
But here is where you are misunderstanding spiritual life. Since what we want most of all is to please G-d, we have to ask, what is it that G-d wants from us at these frantic times? It is not our deeply concentrated prayers, nor is it our lofty and detached meditations. He wants one thing most of all. He wants a happy baby and a relaxed new mother. This means a clean and well-fed baby and it means changing the baby’s diaper. This has now become the most holy work we can do. This is what we do to fulfill G-d’s wishes. He wants a happy wife and a clean, orderly home. He wants a happy family and, yes, even a happy daddy, too.
What is the point? The question is not so much what are we doing, as what is it that G-d wants from us. Since He wants a clean baby, going to work to make the money to buy the diapers has become holy work. Without the money there will be no diapers to change. This then is the true spiritual work in this world. We should be happy that we have the opportunity to please G-d in this way.
G-d’s wish is that the world should run just like the Garden of Eden. This is His intention. In order to reveal the Garden here and now, the baby has to have a clean diaper. There are no unhappy babies (nor mommies) in His Garden. Whatever we are occupied with that brings the family and the world into His Garden is the holy service of Hashem.
Then, when things calm down, take a good look at the nature of your being and G-d’s Being that is everywhere. See if you can open up some of the gates that are in the Garden that seem to separate Heaven from Earth.
Holy Diapers - - - - - - - posted by Akiva - - 5/07/2009 08:35:00 AM ET
by Reb Gutman Locks at Mystical Paths
Question:
Having defined the lofty purpose of life as such things as revealing G-d’s magnificent Presence in the world, we can wonder what then does this really have to do with us and our normal, everyday life? In fact, most of us are so busy with the mundane things that are so overwhelming, how are we expected to be able to concentrate even five minutes on such lofty spiritual matters?
Answer:
Here is one of the great secrets of spiritual life. What does the spiritual seeker really want? We say that it is to be able to see G-d right here in the physical world. But really even greater than this desire is our desire to please Him. If He wanted us to have a different goal, other than revealing His Presence, then this would become our spiritual goal. So living a successful spiritual life really amounts to simply trying to please G-d.
When you have an infant in the house and an overwhelmed new mother, things can get pretty hectic. Add to this that you have to go to the office, that there are the other kids to take care of, the house is a total mess, and on and on . . . things just pile on top of each other. It is so easy to fall into depression (G-d forbid) and just want to give up and sit down and cry!
But here is where you are misunderstanding spiritual life. Since what we want most of all is to please G-d, we have to ask, what is it that G-d wants from us at these frantic times? It is not our deeply concentrated prayers, nor is it our lofty and detached meditations. He wants one thing most of all. He wants a happy baby and a relaxed new mother. This means a clean and well-fed baby and it means changing the baby’s diaper. This has now become the most holy work we can do. This is what we do to fulfill G-d’s wishes. He wants a happy wife and a clean, orderly home. He wants a happy family and, yes, even a happy daddy, too.
What is the point? The question is not so much what are we doing, as what is it that G-d wants from us. Since He wants a clean baby, going to work to make the money to buy the diapers has become holy work. Without the money there will be no diapers to change. This then is the true spiritual work in this world. We should be happy that we have the opportunity to please G-d in this way.
G-d’s wish is that the world should run just like the Garden of Eden. This is His intention. In order to reveal the Garden here and now, the baby has to have a clean diaper. There are no unhappy babies (nor mommies) in His Garden. Whatever we are occupied with that brings the family and the world into His Garden is the holy service of Hashem.
Then, when things calm down, take a good look at the nature of your being and G-d’s Being that is everywhere. See if you can open up some of the gates that are in the Garden that seem to separate Heaven from Earth.
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